Ineffective product

[millerlite180]

I've used Super Cissus RX 800mg capsules. Followed dosing guidelines and took 150 capsules (full bottle sold at GNC). No benefits whatsoever. No pain relief at all. I have a muscle strain in my facial muscles and tendonitis. Save your money and buy something worthwhile, such as systemic enzymes. Wobenzym N (brand name) worked wonders for me and actually gets at the root of the problem for lots of people.

Flavenzym also works for me and is cheaper (Vitacost sells it). Just a thought.

[dexterium]

Thanks for your feedback. Sorry it didn't work for you. However, I am sure it works and here are hundreds of other people that know it works:

Official USPLabs Super Cissus RX Reviews: Rebuild Your Joints and Recover! - Bodybuilding.com Forums

[millerlite180]

You can't be 100% sure it works for everyone. It didn't for me or my friend. It's a bit expensive at $50. I bought an 800 tablet bottle of enteric systemic enzymes for a little more than that. My friend and I split it, and his problem (muscle strain) saw immediate (3 days at 20 tabs a day...standard dose for enzymes) pain relief and after only 2 weeks of therapy he was back in action. Not only was pain gone, but his muscle healed. This was according to his physical therapist and primary care physician.

My facial muscle strain occured on March 18, 2009 from a vicious hockey hit to the jaw and caused Temporary TMD(aka TMJ) and facial muscle strain from chewing when my joint was out of whack. Doctor put me on 3200mg ibruprofen for 30 days, and did nothing but slow the soft tissue healing. I later read it's a common problem with NSAIDS. I took tons of vitamin C, protein, aminos, magnesium, very good multi, you name it. All helped a little, but as soon as the enzymes were started.......well lets just say it's been a blessing. Anways, I still had this problem as of early July, when I started the enzymes, but after half the bottle of enzymes it's virtually gone. Muscles are relaxed and pliable, joint inflammation is gone. I used them once before for rosacea issues and they took the burning and stinging away for good.

I just want the public to be educated. I'm not saying Cissus might not work for you, but it didnt for me or the only other guy I know on a personal basis. I also don't work for any nutrient company. I work for the Fed Govt. Sometimes my friends/family tell me I should become a nutritionist because I have a huge interest in health. But I dont' have any affiliation or reason to promote anything unless it actually worked for me and I feel I can help others. Just don't get Systemic enzymes confused with digestive enzymes. Their similiar, but systemic enzymes are enteric coated for release in the small intestine and work by breaking down proteins in the blood. Europeans use them as a prescription. They are actually the #2 top selling pain relief under aspirin. Only reason they are 2 is because they are so expensive. But their are no side effects. And they are actually good for your body even if your not injured.

Ok. Enough rambling, do your own research on them. Only 2 major brands exist, though. Wobenzym N (original European) and Flavenzym (vitacost knockoff). I've used both personally. Very similiar effect and exact same formula.

Any other questions, let me know. I've read a lot of books on supplements. Linus Pauling has a good one on vitamin c. Plus he's the only 2 time nobel prize winner in the history of the prize.

[USPlabs]

Originally Posted by millerlite180

You can't be 100% sure it works for everyone. It didn't for me or my friend. It's a bit expensive at $50. I bought an 800 tablet bottle of enteric systemic enzymes for a little more than that. My friend and I split it, and his problem (muscle strain) saw immediate (3 days at 20 tabs a day...standard dose for enzymes) pain relief and after only 2 weeks of therapy he was back in action. Not only was pain gone, but his muscle healed. This was according to his physical therapist and primary care physician.

My facial muscle strain occured on March 18, 2009 from a vicious hockey hit to the jaw and caused Temporary TMD(aka TMJ) and facial muscle strain from chewing when my joint was out of whack. Doctor put me on 3200mg ibruprofen for 30 days, and did nothing but slow the soft tissue healing. I later read it's a common problem with NSAIDS. I took tons of vitamin C, protein, aminos, magnesium, very good multi, you name it. All helped a little, but as soon as the enzymes were started.......well lets just say it's been a blessing. Anways, I still had this problem as of early July, when I started the enzymes, but after half the bottle of enzymes it's virtually gone. Muscles are relaxed and pliable, joint inflammation is gone. I used them once before for rosacea issues and they took the burning and stinging away for good.

I just want the public to be educated. I'm not saying Cissus might not work for you, but it didnt for me or the only other guy I know on a personal basis. I also don't work for any nutrient company. I work for the Fed Govt. Sometimes my friends/family tell me I should become a nutritionist because I have a huge interest in health. But I dont' have any affiliation or reason to promote anything unless it actually worked for me and I feel I can help others. Just don't get Systemic enzymes confused with digestive enzymes. Their similiar, but systemic enzymes are enteric coated for release in the small intestine and work by breaking down proteins in the blood. Europeans use them as a prescription. They are actually the #2 top selling pain relief under aspirin. Only reason they are 2 is because they are so expensive. But their are no side effects. And they are actually good for your body even if your not injured.

Ok. Enough rambling, do your own research on them. Only 2 major brands exist, though. Wobenzym N (original European) and Flavenzym (vitacost knockoff). I've used both personally. Very similiar effect and exact same formula.

Any other questions, let me know. I've read a lot of books on supplements. Linus Pauling has a good one on vitamin c. Plus he's the only 2 time nobel prize winner in the history of the prize.

What is the lot number on your Cissus bottle?

Where is the research that digestive enzymes sorry "systemic enzymes" help tendonitis and break down the "protein" in the blood?

I'm all for open discussion.

Just a bit weird that you even ventured to use cissus when you are a pitching the european miracle drug on my forum.

If what you are pitiching works so well, why purchase Super Cissus Rx?

[oufinny]

Oh please please let this debate rage on! I can't wait to hear the arguments for the miracle enzymes and why they are better than Cissus... I mean, all that joint pain I don't have and tendinitis that are kept at bay must have nothing to do with the Super Cissus I take. This reminds me of people that take PowerFULL, eat carbs with it or after, then say it doesn't work. Jacob you make a great product that is now and will be for a long time in the future a staple in my arsenal, keep up the good work!

[millerlite180]

Originally Posted by USPlabs

What is the lot number on your Cissus bottle?

Where is the research that digestive enzymes sorry "systemic enzymes" help tendonitis and break down the "protein" in the blood?

I'm all for open discussion.

Just a bit weird that you even ventured to use cissus when you are a pitching the european miracle drug on my forum.

If what you are pitiching works so well, why purchase Super Cissus Rx?

1st of all, the lot # on my bottle is......100409C Exp. Apr. 2012. Purchased at GNC in Capital City Mall, Camp Hill, PA.

2nd. If you don't know the difference between digestive and systemic enzymes, then you are missing out on something. Systemic are enteric coated. This means PH resistant so that they are not dissolved in the stomach for all of you who missed out on BIO 101 in college. Digestive enzymes are not enteric coated, so they dissolve and absorb in the stomach. They also include a lot more than proteolytic enzymes. Proteolytic enzymes are enzymes that break down protein in the blood. Another lesson from Bio I learned was that our body's basic component is enzymes and proteins, followed next by cells.

Digestive enzymes contain amylase, lipase, and proteases. Totally different scenario. I've had mix results with digestive enyzmes since they are meant to break down food only.

3rd. I gave Cissus a chance, because like you, I read all of those testimonials on bodybuilding websites and I figured why not. Can't hurt.

4th. There is no "European miracle drug." You must have misread/misunderstood when I said I don't have a reason to promote anything unless it worked for me or someone else I know (more importantly me).

5th. I don't work for any enzyme company (in case you were wondering). I work for Def. Logistics Agency.

6th. I believe the public has a right to know about if something does or does not work, so that there is no misleading information that it works for everyone. I do this for all my supplements. If something worked for me, then I tell about it. Otherwise, people wouldn't know. Likewise, if something didn't work, I post it too. Not just on this forum. It's just an opinion, not a standard.

I usually give anything a shot, after what I deem is a fair bit of good testimonials and/or research. I can look up the research for you if you want, but I do just as good as anyone who can dig around the internet and pubmed/NIH. Like Cissus, systemic enzymes (especially Wobenzym N) is mainly studied overseas (Germany to be exact). But there are some American studies and a lot of physcial therapist and D.0.'s in the states use it. My own primary care physician sells it. He is a D.O. (aka medical and holistic dr combined). I didn't buy it from him because it's outrageously priced from retail. I did my own research on it. Plus go to vitacost.com or search wobenzym, or many other online retailers and you will literally see 100's of outstanding reviews. Almost all of them are 4.8/5 stars.

The only reason I mention vitacost is that's where I buy a lot of supplements because it's cheaper than most other places. No affiliation. Luckyvitamin has cheap stuff too. I'm thrifty so I like to shop around. Ok. Enough rambling. Do some basic research on it. I work long hours for the government so digging it up again and posting it might take a while. Gotta love the feds.

Anything else, let me know. Once again, I'm sure the enzymes won't work for everyone because nothing else does either. It's all part of a bigger puzzle. It's finding the missing link.

[millerlite180]

Sorry, I messed up a sentence after proofreading my post. I meant to say that Systemic enzymes contain a lot of proteolytic enzymes (not digestive enzymes).

[millerlite180]

Originally Posted by oufinny

Oh please please let this debate rage on! I can't wait to hear the arguments for the miracle enzymes and why they are better than Cissus... I mean, all that joint pain I don't have and tendinitis that are kept at bay must have nothing to do with the Super Cissus I take. This reminds me of people that take PowerFULL, eat carbs with it or after, then say it doesn't work. Jacob you make a great product that is now and will be for a long time in the future a staple in my arsenal, keep up the good work!

Once again, there is no "miracle enzymes." A phrase made up by ignorance. If Cissus works for you, then so be it. Herbs are touchy substances and have no chemical use in the body (at least by what the body needs to live on). Vitamins/minerals, yea they do. Enzymes, as stated in my last post, are the very first buidling block for everything in our body. Learned that from years in Biology courses. I'm sure herbs can help with problems already incurred, so don't misinterpret me. I know that Valerian and some others helps with stress. Just herbs in general have a lot shorter track history than other substancs.

[millerlite180]

Ok. I just had to find a least a couple of studies. The first two are detailed abstracts and the next couple are shortened abstracts. I'm sure there are more, but I don't have time right now. If anything just read the first 2 as they are both impressive, especially against the prescription painkiller Diclofenac. The enyzmes proved to be slightly more effective at 7 weeks, and equally effective at 3 weeks.

Here you go.


Short-Term Treatment of Painful Osteoarthritis of the Knee with Oral Enzymes A Randomised, Double-Blind Study versus Diclofenac

G. Klein1,2 and W. Kullich2

1 Rehabilitation Center for Rheumatic and Cardiovascular Diseases, Saalfelden, Austria
2 Ludwig Boltzmann Institute for Rehabilitation of Internal Diseases, Saalfelden, Austria
Clin Drug Invest (2000): 19(1), 15-23.

Abstract

Objective: To compare the short-term efficacy and tolerability of an oral enzyme therapy with the NSAID diclofenac in patients with symptomatic osteoarthritis of the knee (gonarthritis).

Methods: In a double-blind clinical trial, 73 patients with painful gonarthritis were randomised to receive 3 weeks of treatment with an oral enzyme preparation (Phlogenzym®) containing bromelain, trypsin and rutin (n = 36), or the NSAID diclofenac (n = 37). Efficacy was primarily evaluated using the Lequesne index (measuring pain and function of the affected knee). Other investigations included assessment of pain symptoms using a visual analogue scale (VAS), global assessment of efficacy and tolerability (by both patients and one physician), and various laboratory parameters. Patients were evaluated at baseline,
at weekly intervals throughout the 3-week treatment period, and at 7 weeks (i.e. 4 weeks after discontinuing therapy).

Results: The Lequesne index improved continuously in both groups: from 13.56 at baseline to 3.10 after 3 weeks (end of therapy) to 2.05 at 7 weeks (follow-up) in the enzyme group, and from 14.04 to 3.50 to 2.24, respectively, in the diclofenac group. Statistical evaluation showed the treatment groups to be equivalent; the lower bound of the 95% confidence interval of the Mann-Whitney estimator was above 0.44 (the limit for equivalence) at all time points. Global assessment of efficacy and tolerability of the drugs was 'very good' or 'good' for the majority patients.

Conclusions: Short-term evaluation indicates that oral enzymes may be considered an effective and safe alternative to NSAIDs such as diclofenac in the treatment of painful gonarthritis.

The effectiveness of systemic enzymotherapy in the complex treatment of rheumatoid arthritis
Mazourov V.I., Lila A.M., Klimko N.N., Raimuev K.V., Shemerovskaya T.G., Alekseeva T.G., Makulova T.G.

Medical Academy of postgraduate education, Military Medical Academy, City rheumatological center, St. Petersburg, Russia.

At present treatment of rheumatoid arthritis (RA) affecting main pathogenetic mechanisms of its development includes basic medications (crizanol, D-penicillinamine, methotrexate, chlorbutin etc.) as well as agents of "actual" therapy (NSAID and glucocorticoids) [1, 3-9,13, 14].

Frequent side effects of the medication of the first group and insufficient effectiveness of the second group demands the search for new therapeutic agents in the treatment of these patients [2, 4, 7, 9, 11, 14].

For this purpose we included medications of systemic enzymotherapy (Wobenzym and Phlogenzym) in the complex treatment of RA, which possess the properties of both basic medications and symptomatic antiinflammatory agents [10, 12, 15,16, 17].

The goal of the present investigation was to assess Wobenzym

Conclusion

The results of the performed study demonstrate new highly effective preparations with basic properties in the arsenal of antirheumatoid medications Wobenzym .

Systemic enzymotherapy can be of RA treatment, which directly influences the pathogenetic mechanisms of the disease.

The administration of the systemic enzymotherapy medications is advisable in combination with basic medications. Besides, Wobenzym a can be administered to RA patients in whom basic cytostatic therapy in contraindicated due to the presence of cytopenia, liver and kidney abnormality etc.



These are the short abstracts.


Wobenzym for glomerulonephritis
Antioxidant effect of wobenzym applied for patients with chronic glomerulonephritis
Lik Sprava. 2007 Jan-March. Article in Ukrainian. Mukhin IV.
There is formation of free radicals in mesangial cells in patients with chronic glomerulonephritis which increases destruction of renal tissue and enable autoimmune inflammation. The unbalance between activity of oxidizing and antioxidazing starts developing. It accelerates the progression of the disease. The article presents the assessment of influence of enzyme medication Wobenzym on main indices of oxidizing and antioxidant systems. It was established the presence of antioxidant effect in Wobenzym medication.

Wobenzym and bronchitis
Wobenzym in treatment of recurrent obstructive bronchitis in children.
Georgian Med News. 2005 October. Tbilisi State Medical University; M. Guramishvili Pediatric Clinic, Tbilisi, Georgia.
A total of 27 patients with recurrent obstructive bronchitis (at least 3 episodes of obstructive bronchitis per year) of 5-15 years of age were studied. Serum IgE level (by ELISA method) and pulmonary function indices were determined together with the full clinical examination. The systemic enzyme preparation Wobenzym was administered with a dosage of 1 tablet for 6 kg weight. Wobenzym was administered for 3 months. Analysis of the data, obtained after treatment, demonstrated decrease of the Daily Symptom Score and an increase of Symptom Free Days, as well as an improvement in spirometric indices (FVC, FEV, PEF). Systemic enzyme preparation Wobenzym should be used as a supporting measure in combination treatment of recurrent obstructive bronchitis.

Wobenzym and atherosclerosis
The effect of Wobenzym enzymes on the atherogenic potential and inflammatory factors at the rehabilitation stage for patients who have had a myocardial infarct
Lik Sprava. 2000 Jul-Aug;(5):111-4.
Effects were studied of wobenzyme on atherogenicity of blood serum and immunoinflammatory reactions in patients with myocardial infarction during the rehabilitation stage over six months. The basis therapy when supplemented with wobenzyme was found out to facilitate normalization of the atherogenic potential and to have a positive action on the mediators of the inflammatory process.

Wobenzym as anti-inflammatory
The use of Wobenzym in the comprehensive treatment of patients with digital flexor tendon injury
Klin Khir. 2000;(4):39-40.
The results of treatment of 56 patients with tendons of digital flexors were analyzed. In 28 of them in complex of treatment Wobenzim was included, and an early active mobilization as well. Considerable antiinflammatory, antioedematous, secondarily analgetic effect of preparation, its application in early period permitted to realize active movements, to reach high functional result of treatment of patients' were noted.

Wobenzym as blood thinner
The effect of the preparation Wobenzym on the antioxidant protection indices and on the functional-morphological properties of the erythrocytes in a toxic lesion of the liver
Lik Sprava. 1999 Jul;(5):124-8.
Based on the analysis of results of examination of 60 patients with toxic affections of the liver particular features of the anti-radical defence decompensation mechanisms have been established together with changes in morphofunctional properties of red cells in toxic hepatitis in patients with pulmonary tuberculosis. It was considered expedient to include the polyenzymic preparation Wobenzyme into the therapeutic complex since it had been shown to make for normalization of the red cells' ability to undergo deformation, lowering the degree of viscosity of RBC suspension in the above patients.

The pharmacological action of wobenzym on blood coagulability
Lik Sprava. 1997 Jul-Aug;(4):70-2.

N Wobenzym for lymphedema
Wobenzyme and diuretic therapy in lymphedema after breast operation
Wien Med Wochenschr. 1996;146(4):67-72; discussion 74.
The authors of this clinical study report the results of a controlled clinical trial in randomized parallel groups (Wobenzym vs. diuretics) of 55 female patients suffering from brachial arm lymph edema subsequent to ablatio mammae. All patients received manual and machine lymph drainage as well as gymnastics as concomitant therapy. After 7 weeks of therapy the results of the volometric assessments of the arm, the circumference of the arm and the skinfold thickness showed significant improvements compared to diuretics. In addition, the patients receiving Wobenzym reported a significantly higher proportion of patients free of pain compared to the diuretics patients. Overall safety assessment results are satisfactory thus resulting in a superior benefit/risk relation of the Wobenzym group.

N Wobenzym research - absorption and distribution
Intestinal resorption with 3H labeled enzyme mixture ( wobenzyme )
Acta Med Austriaca. 1979;6(1):13-8.
0.2 g of an enzyme mixture ( Wobenzym ) labelled with 3H-acetic anhydride, were given orally to guinea pigs, which were arranged in 4 groups of 5 animals. The animals of each group were sacrificed at intervals of 30 minutes, 2, 4 and 24 hours after application. Radioactivity of the small and large intestine, plasma, urine, liver, heart, kidney, and skeletal muscle were determined. It could be shown that the labeled mixture of enzymes was absorbed from the intestine and was demonstrable in significant amounts in plasma, urine, heart, kidney, liver and skeletal muscle.

[F_S]

There is a lot of negative feedback on USP Labs products and I'm beginning to get concerned as mixed reviews led me to trying out P-Slin myself and I haven't noticed anything...